Hey, graduation within weeks In Shaa Allah. Wow, finally will we really go ? OK, let us talk about an issue may concern many of us. Some of us will be offered TA positions in university and others may be offered jobs abroad in Europe or USA (or even dream about traveling to western part of the world). Well, did you ask yourself if this will suits you ? can you answer ? I myself failed to answer. We discussed some peers, I found all opinions depends on what we think and not on what the real situation is.
Fortunately, I have good relations with my TAs abroad (either from my department or from other departments). I think they are the best ones to answer. Let me thanks Allah that they are that wonderful to give us their experience as elder brothers and sisters. Definitly this will clear many thing for our next steps In Shaa Allah. I have chosen to be "On Air" so share me their experience "Live from America"
First I asked them the question like the following
"
Dear our TAs, Al Salamo 3likom
I think you all know we (class 2008) are about graduation within weeks In Shaa Allah. Some proposed to be offered TA positions and other may be offered some jobs in Europe or USA.
We need to ask you a very small question that help some of us in our choices. What do you think about life in USA and Canada for different aspects of life (work, social, treatment, future,........) ?
Be sure that you will help us very much.
Thanks in advance for your time :)
Wal Salamo 3likom wa Ra7mot Allah "
This is the content in all emails. Some emails may be personalized like "Dear Eng Nagy",...... or even I added Israel in some emails due to some discussion with class the last days. Anyway, I asked about USA and Canada as they all live either in USA or Canada. Let us see their replies. I will order it chronologically In Shaa Allah.
Eng. Amr Eid Hilal, Virginia, USA
Virginia Tech University, Computer Science
" After living alone for one year out of the country, and in the same time considering what is happening now in Egypt, I would say that taking such decision to get out of this country should be made very carefully. Many factors should contribute in making this decision ya man. For example, how good the offers is, is it worthy to leave your family, the place (I mean the city and the community) you are gonna stay in, are you planning to stay forever or planning to come back considering the fact that Europe and USA are not that close to Egypt like KSA and the Gulf area.
For your questions, boss ya me3alem, living in non-arab or non-Muslim countries (from my perspective) have some points you should take care of. First, I would say that without a good community, you won't bear it especially if you are not married. Second, the loss of morals and virtues in those countries is a very bad thing that I PERSONALLY did not like. On the other side, life is so easy and smooth, and you will enjoy it. You will also enjoy your work, and the systematic way of life, which is a very good thing here. We may talk in more details ya Amr later ISA when I come back to Egypt this summer, soon ISA.
I hope I made myself clear, and sorry for the short answers, and see you all soon ISA.
Asslamo 3likom, "
Eng. Iman Elghandour, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
University of Waterloo, Computer Science
http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~ielghand/
" ليس من العدل ان ندعي ان الحياة احسن ما تكون في اي مكان، ففي كل مكان ستواجه صعاب و تحديات من نوع مختلف.
و لذلك فليس عدلا مقارنة الوضع في مصر باي مكان اخر. فيكفي ان يكون الانسان بجوار والديه يبرهم لنرجح كفة مصر ، وكن كما قلت سابقا المثالية دي صعبة.
المهم ان يكون هدفنا الجنة ، واختيارنا للطريق الذي نسلكه ده يرجع للقدرات و التقديرات الشخصية و احنا ممكن نحقق الهدف ده فين. فاني اعتقد انه نوع من الفشل العيش في مكان و انا عاجز علي اني اعمل اي حاجة او اني اكون مفيد باي طريقة و ارجع السبب للبلد او الظروف. لازم افضل اتحرك و احاول لاخر يوم في حياتي و ان شاء الله لنا اجر هذه المحاولات حتي لو موصلتناش للاهداف الدنيويا فندعوا الله ان تصلنا الي هدفنا الاساسي في الاخرة
المهم ان اخلص نيتي لله ، و لنتذكر ان اذا كانت هجرتي لله فسوف ااجر بها ان شاء الرحمن
احب هنا ان اشبه قرار السفر او البقاء في مصر كان هناك حرب ويجب ان اقرر ااحارب علي الجبهة او اعمل جاهدا من بعيد علي تدريب الجنود و عمل اي شئ اخر مفيد
فادعو الله ان يرزقنا الاخلاص في العمل
Next, I will try to answer your questions from my own experience and from what I have learned from others.
Work in the north america:
a)If you are able to join a good school then you will have the opportunity to do a real research, meet very good peers, attend good conferences, and have a good experience. This can allow you to have a good career in both academia or industry later.
b) Working in industry. I had a chance to do internships and do joint projects with researchers. Generally it was a good experience. I learned from american students that going to grad school helps a lot to get a good career. People with masters and PhD are much appreciated in north america.
c) Work in academia. I do not know. But i recently heard that getting funds is hard and also to join a good university you have to graduate from a high ranked one and do really good.
2) Life in north america.
Usually, there is a good muslim community in every city. You can always check this before joining a school or a company. Americans are generally nice people. Canada has a higher percentage of immigrants so life is more peaceful. It is a multi culture environment in canada so there is no place for racial discrimination. I should mention that it is aslo dependent on where you live. Some place are not safe as others.
A related issue. Getting the canadian visa might be easier than getting the US visa if you have an offer from a school or a company in canada. You can always apply for permanent residence before or once you arrive and it is usually easy to get. This will allow you to be a legal resident in few years and so you can travel around easily, and also to work after school if you plan to do so! I understand that these stuff might be harder in US!
3) Future, "kolo be2eed Rabena" one cannot know for certain what can happen any where. For example, raising children in north america might be more challenging compared to raising them back home, but at the same time some people claim that is easier when they see how everything is getting worse in egypt! And once you trust that this work is for the sake of Allah, and that Allah chooses the best for you (المؤمن امره كله خير ), then inshaaAllah Rabena 7ayerzo2ak good future.
"
Eng. Hossam Sharara, Maryland, USA
University of Maryland at College Park, Computer Science " SA,
how are you amr? hope everything is fine..
Well, this is a HUGE question :) With many aspects to consider.. so, what comes next is my own opinion in this issue..
First, you have to know what you want to do for your career.. This is the most important part.. It's either one of two ways:
1) Industry:
This is where money comes in play :) but also you can join some research lab in a big company and do "some" research oriented
work. For this, i would say that working in Dubai, Europe or even in a branch of some major company (IBM, Microsoft, etc..) in
Egypt is better than USA for many reasons (i'll enumerate them in a while).. but briefly, even income-cost wise, USA is not the best
option.
USA will be a good option only for a start.. i mean you can come here (with no strings attached -- no wife, no kids) spend a year or
two in a big company here [in this setup, the income-cost figures will play in your favor] then move to a branch in middle east (i
prefer anywhere other than KSA and kuwait)
2) Research:
DON'T ENGAGE IN IT UNLESS YOU REEAALLLLLYYYY WANT IT. This is where stress, nervous breakdown, and many other
phsychological disease come to play :D. Expect NO money in the short term, and far less than industry on the long term. Being a
TA in alex university is not the golden gate for pursuing Academic Career, it's just a start. you can do it even if you choose not
to be a TA, There many factors other than this that they consider for admission in universities here in USA.
If you plan to end up in industry after getting you PhD, again DON'T go for it.. Start industry from the begining.
Unfortunately :), if you really want this career, then USA is the best option. Graduate schools here have a very good reputation in
academia or industry (for your career after the PhD). In this case, there'll be no point of returning back from USA to anywhere else
(unless you get fed up of research at sometime and started to find some other place in the gulf for money, or if a miracle happens
and a real research started in some university some where in the middle east).
Again, the previous part represent MY opinion, you can totally ignore it if you have your own beliefs or thoughts about it
In regards of living aspects (Here come the reply to your email :)
USA
Work: - Ta7ona, you must expect to work really hard and in a highly competitive professional environment. Here, they respect their
work time as much as they respect their weekend :)
Treatment: - If you are referring to arab/muslim descretion, i can assure you it's not that big a deal.. Things are much better now, and it
is really dependent on the environmet. Most probably you'll end up in a multi-national environment (either in academia or
industry), and in these types of environments, they really respect the differences and you'll find no problem in dealing with
them.
- If you are referring to actual treatment, Finally, your work translates to outcomes. Even if you have the simplest job in all
the place, you'll be highly respected for doing it.
Society: - I believe the american society is much better than many european (and even arab) societies. The real question is, do you
wanna raise your children here? I really couldn't answer this question. I believe the egyptian society now is a much worse
environment to raise your kids in, but there are many family aspects and other things that might affect your decision.
Future: - As i told you, For academia you must evaluate all the factors carefully 'cause your career will be here and no where but
here (i mean in the states), but for industry, you can relocate whenver you want.
Life: - In general, Wherever you work, you'll be paid enough to live in a good level (you and your family). Saving is highly
depenedent on the place you work in, your marutal status, and many other aspects.
Hope i addressed some of your questions
Please circulate the email for anyone asking
i'll be glad to chat with anyone of you who needs more info.
Let me know where each one of you end up in
RABNA yewafa2ko lema fi el7'eir
Salam
"
Eng. Amr El Helw, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
University of Waterloo, Computer Science
http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~aelhelw/
"
Dear Amr, 3alikom el salam First of all, congratulation (in advance) for your very soon graduation!!
Regarding your question, I think Canada is quite a nice place to live in. There are many work opportunities here. The social aspect is different from Egypt of course. It takes some effort to socialize, but that's expected in any foreign country. In terms of treatment, Canada has people from all over the world, and people tend to treat everyone with the same amount of respect.
I know these are very general answers. But if you need anything more specific, please let me know and I'll try to help as much as I can
Good luck!
"
Eng. ---------- ,London, Ontario, Canada
---------, Civil Engineering
" Wa3alikom Al Salam Wa Ra7mat Allah Wa Barakatoh 3amr,
How are you man, miss you and your colleagues so much. Hope you are fine and doing great in your study.
For life in Canada, it is very nice and calm. There are not too much people here and if you hear a horn of a car in the street that means that someone have done something very foolish. So almost there is no noise.
Canada has a big arab and muslim community which make you feel as if you are in Egypt and may be better because they are not worried about the lines for gettng bread :))))
However, nothing is complete. Here SOME women are not properly dressed, especially in the summer :)))
If you raised your children here you will find a problem that they speak English all the time. In Egypt parents like their sons and daughters to speak English. However, if you live in a societey that speaks English and you care about Quraan then you may not be very happy. This does not mean that you cannot bring your children here. However, i mean that it requires some more effort and i don't think that bringing up children in Egypt nowadays is an easy task. So it depends upon the parents themselves.
Believe me, i have met here some people that don't know arabic at all. However, they read the Quraan very well "Morataal" and they even pray with us as Imam. So it depends upon your judgment.
If you are thinkg of coming here to make a Master and Ph.D., this is a great idea. Research here is different than Egypt and you will have fun and Enjoy it ISA.
However, i recommend that if you think of getting married, wait until you come here first and see what is you opinion. Because living as single is different than having a family. But generally all the families here are very happy and no one is complaining.
Another thing, it is a little cold here, But all of us get used to that. and it is not a problem now.
If you want to work here that is also a good idea, but you will need to find a work first as to get a work permit. You cannot come and search. But generally who take any degree from here, ISA they find good jobs. Also it gives them recommendation if they want to apply to immigration.
My experiance from this two years that i almost spent here. Whether you want to continue in acadimia or work in a company or have your own separate work, you should travel abroad as it is very benefitial and you will learn a lot (not only science), and Canada is an ideal country for that.
By the way, not all what you here in Egypt about foriegn countries is true. Here the people are so nice. and all the time the are smiling. and employers try to solve your problems not to make new ones. Don't believe people that haven't travel, also don't believe people that don't want you to travel.
I am here at University of Western Ontario. I have colleagues in the computer science department and i know that it is good here and they are very happy. Even i have a colleague that have just finished the Master then he got a job here in Canada but after spending a couple of months he found that he is working in the new work more than his work at the university in the Master. So he decided to return to continue Ph.D. next September ISA. Here Computer science is much easier than Civil Engineering :)))))))) However I know that university of Waterloo is better than here in computer science and electrical Engineering and there are also many other universities in Canada that you can search in. So see and your colleagues what you want and if you have any questions, just let me know.
Best regards, ------------ "
Eng. Mina Ayman, California, USA
Stanford University, Electrical Engineering
"
hi Amr, tab3an fakrak. thanks for ur e-mail.
You will not have one answer for ur question. u will always have to sacrifice something for another. ur next few years are those which will ISA shape ur future significantly. So, My advice to u is first think abt yourself 20 years from now. what position do u like to have? What community do u like to live in? what do u want for ur family and the future of ur children and how and where do u want them to be raised up?
U mainly have to choose between research and work either in Egypt or abroad. What I did for myself is to follow my elder colleagues (may be because i don't like risks and i do much like research). I decided to take my TA job and try as much as possible to prepare a good CV to give me better chance for a good Ph.D. offer. Now I am trying to learn as much as i can in my Ph.d. period. i am not quite sure abt next step but ISA it will be in research also. i very much like to be faculty either here or back in Egypt.
U asked abt work and treatment. Study here is very very useful. People in multicultural environment are trying to very flexible in treating others. u will find people very welcoming and helpful. especially because ur main community will be either university or respectable firm. Work is much harder than Egypt. life is easy in terms of ur salary and the easiness of doing everything but u will be away from ur family, friends and good memories.
The egyptian community depends mainly on where u r. in some places most egyptians r like u either students or working in industry and it is wonderful community.u will find really great personalities in other places u find those illegal immigrants from whom u can expect any bad thing.
My final advice, the most important choice is either research or work. for going abroad, u can try for example for ur ph.d. period and then decide. I hope i helped. please feel free to ask more questions.
good luck and God Bless,
Mina "
Eng. Nagy Moustafa, California, USA
University of California, Sanata Barbara
" Wi Alaikom EL Salam Amr,
Well .. congratulations on your soon-to-be graduation and best wishes for your upcoming career.
Thanks for entrusting me with providing you with some insight about how things are here.
I will try to be brief and clear in my reply, but note that whatever I say here is merely my opinion and perception of things here. Other people might disagree of course. So don't take what I state here as facts, but rather as a point of view.
About work (Industry not academia):
Pros:
- Decent salary
- Real challenging problems to work on.
- Getting in touch with really smart and amazing people in CS
Cons:
- Might be unsecure if the economy goes down or anything of the sort. After all it is a capitalist country, and downsizing in case of low profit is typical. Hasn't been the case for CS though.
- More stressful than Egypt.
About social life here:
You have to know that the U.S. is huge, so it really depends on what part you are going too. My feedback here is about the west-coast. People are nicer in general, but you might get some racist vibes from people who are basically ignorant and would not accept you as much. People here are mostly brain-washed by the media, so they would consider you "different" in many ways since you are arab and muslim, since the media here picture them as terrorists. No one will cause you harm or show you discrimination though. I have been here for nearly two years and it never occured to me and people are nice in general.
The other fold to this issue is yourself and how much you are willing to accept others. The U.S. is a metling pot and being in direct contact with people with different orientations might be uncomfortable to you, specially if you haven't travelled before. For instance, homosexuality is part of the culture here and it is even celebrated ! Can you accept dealing with a gay person ? Because he could be your project partner or colleague, for example. If you choose not to deal with people who don't follow what you beleive in, you might end up really secluding yourself from others. So acceptance is key here.
Another aspect to this is your own faith in Islam. Hate to say it, but most people who don't really understand their faith and ponder on it come here and somehow lose it. I think the issue is that living in Egypt makes you less exposed to others (Think about it , we only have Coptics and Muslims) so most people are just living in a big bubble where everything makes sense because all people are doing the same. But when you travel and find people doing what's different and still they are nice, polite and decent people, that might constitute a challenge to those who never questioned their faith before and the outcome might be unpleasurable.
Your future potential is definitely better here than anywhere else, even Europe.
I hope that reply helps, if you have more questions feel free to add me on msn (----------)
best wishes again,
- nagy
"
Eng. Mohamed El Dawy, Wisconsin, USA
University of Wisconsin, Madison, Computer Science
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~eldawy/
"
Wa3alykom alsalam,
Dear Amr,
It is really hard to answer such a question. The problem is, life is very different in the US than it is in Egypt. Everyone's reaction is different. Personally, I prefer living in the US. The work is better. If you are good, you will get recognized fast. Social life is a little harder than Egypt, but not impossible. You have to start making new friends and relearn all the habits of people here. This could be annoying in the beginning, but it gradually gets easier.
However, what i found out is, the answer is different for everyone. Several factors come into play, and different people have totally different opinions... Some of the factors are...
1. Religion. How religious are you? Is it ok for you to accept other people's religions and live with that? or will you criticize them? Will you think less of others if they don't have the same religion as you? If you do, you will definitely find it harder to live here.
2. Diversity. Are you ok accepting other people's habits? Are you ok accepting other people's way of living? America in particular has so many african americans, indians, chinese, eastern europeans. Middle easterns are a very small minority. Would you be willing to accept all those people? If no, this is another reason to be worried
3. The learning curve. In the beginning, there is a shock, followed by a learning curve. In general, people will change in their first year here. This is a maturing experience. If you don't have many friends where you are going, the first year could be a little tough. You might spend a long time alone. Or you could run into situations you wouldn't be able to understand... etc. In general, I found this to be not a big deal. It is important to ask other people for help though. There are so many small things that can make life easier but you wouldn't even know they exist. Unfortunately, i didn't follow this advice myself when i first came here.
So, yes, i have seen people who had problems with #1, #2 and #3 above, and they HATE it here. Personally, i prefer being here than being in Egypt, because I don't have any problems with other people's habits/religions... etc. But the answer for you could be different
Hope this answers your question. If I missed something, feel free to ask :)
Best,
Mohamed
"
Eng. --------------------, Canada
CS
"
SA Amr,
now this is a tough question to answer,
my advice is first to define your goals and know the consequences of the decisions you are going to take to reach these goals.
Before you decide where to go you must decide what you are going to do ( I can see 3 choices for any graduate)
1. Industry
2. Academia in our department
3. Academia outside our department
You must know that 2 and 3 has no instant financial reward, if you need to support yourself, need to get married and have kids work is a must, part time if you are going with 2 or 3.
1. Industry in Egypt / Middle east
I wont put that much wording into 1 because I never had the experience of a full time employee, nonetheless I have worked for almost two years as a part-timer, its fun but with low sense of self achievement (remember you are just a small part in a big machine) perhaps not until you are senior or a project manager or something, I was lucky to promote quickly where I worked, its very satisfying talking to clients and debating about your own design decision. not to mention its certainly financially rewarding.
2. Academia in our department
well only selected few have this option (isa you are among them), you get assigned as a TA in the department, you will need to work in the dept for 3 years during which you : go the army, work as a part timer or give private courses (mostly to students from the Arab academy). Later on you find a nice university to join, prepare your Ph.D. and then return to close the loop and join the department staff. This is the least financially rewarding choice and personally I think this is the most noble (considering the currently deteriorating educational system we have). Now for you to take this choice with the intention of leaving and never returning the least I think about it is that its unethical. Personally I think it qualifies as a sin of cheating. I will list the main reason behind this in the 3rd point. now there is a lot of success stories for returning professors who managed to keep up their successful research careers back in Egypt and maintained their good financial positions. (if Prof. Walid Aref is still in the department you can go and ask him I think he will advice you)
3. Academia outside Egypt (Research and Teaching) / Industry outside middle east
Now here is a totally different story, and let me clear something for you. there is an illusion that some others used to plant into our minds : "you don't have a chance of studying abroad if you aren't a TA in the department", this is totally a false claim, from a personal experience me and my fellow Egyptian students are the only graduate student I know here that are TA's in their own countries. Being TA isn't in the acceptance requirement of any university I know of :), and people here has tons of reasons to get masters or Ph.D. beside returning to Alexandria and teach. some people need raises in their industry jobs, others want to join academia in any other university, there are even some that do grad studies because they don't have anything else to do. The rule of thumb is, if you passed the minimum requirements of the admission and found a professor who you can convince you are worthy for the RA money, you apply and you will get accepted. This option is only financially rewarding after graduation. you can even change your career afterwards and join the industry. Although most people here says that PhDs have a less chance for employment because they are "over qualified" for most jobs, but one never knows what Allah has planned for him. At the point even if you need to return to Egypt to pursue your teaching/research career you can join any private university with much more money than 2.
To sum up you need to ask yourself lots of questions here are some that I think we all should answer :
- Do you enjoy teaching, passing information to others, seeing instant effect of delivering knowledge to those who didn't have it before you introduced it to them.
- Was your graduation project the most enjoyable activity in your undergrad studies ..? this is the closest thing you have ever done to real work (every one has a predefined role, there is a leader and the quality of the work highly depends on the integration between the team members).
- How do you think about how our department is right now ..? do you have the potential to change it ? if you are given the chance and the place of a TA and get supported by the department professors to finish your masters, would you ultimately return to pay them back ..? would really let down a chance of working for at least $100,000 per year because you had an unwritten agreement with the department that you left as a TA to return as Professor and share the knowledge God himself blessed you with ?
I personally think that any of these choices are legitimate, teaching is a talent, some people just can't pass information to others. Research is also an ability not all of us have. Work needs social skills and dedication that you might not find in yourself. whatever your choices are just be frank with yourself and deep in your hurt be sure to have the intent of serving god in whatever career you chose, because remember, its not up to me or you, right ..?
About social life, wherever you are going you should ask whoever was staying there, you don't want to be the first one, right ..?
I can tell you all the good things about living in Canada and all the bad things about living in US, but its highly dependable on the specific city you will be living in and the company you have there. And again, as every thing else it depends on Gods blessing for you and your family.
But in a nut shell, Canada is an expensive country to live in (with a tax rate of 14% compare to 3% to 8% in US), with a grad student salary you can barely make it (don't even dream about savings), multicultural community is very welcoming, health insurance is a must and is quite expensive as plenty of the medication have low coverage if it all. low crim rate in less populated cities, muslim community is welcoming but self contained if you would like to get yourself involved with them. would I raise my children in Canada ? Well, certainly yes as it stands right now. This nut shell only goes for kitchener/waterloo in ontario, I can't claim it holds any where else.
Hope that helped,
Regards,
-------------
"
